Ira Bowman 

Good morning and welcome everybody. It is A M technically, it’s 802 here in sunny California. It’s a little bit later we’re Jesse’s Jesse’s five o’clock over there. Yeah, it’s five o’clock, I should actually be going because like end of the working day, man. Yeah, well, it’s the start of the week. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna make you do a little overtime today, it’s gonna be fun. It’s not five o’clock is not adequate. It’s like, you’re like the middle. It’s just right. 10am in Central Time. Who are we? What are we doing here? Gentlemen? This is all about no code, low code a little bit too, of course. But what are we talking about? We’re talking about citizen, no coders, also known as citizen coders, we’ll get to the no in a minute, are changing businesses 10 times faster. On A Budget, we’re going to tell you all about it. If you’ve not heard of low code, or no code or citizen development. What the heck are you talking about IRA? Well, you probably married to me, my wife is used to not understanding what I’m talking about my kids in a little bit, they can translate. But for those of you are not sure what I’m talking about, we’re gonna get into it today. Because this really is changing the world. A lot of people are talking about chat GVT they’re talking about Alexa and Siri, they’re talking about no design tools, drag and drop tools on websites, we’re talking about getting out of spreadsheets, we’re talking about animating the processes and doing it without spending 10s of 1000s or hundreds of 1000s of dollars in waiting 12 months, 18 months, however long the project might take, maybe you need a new app for your business. Well, guess what you can build it yourself. Or you can hire somebody like low code road to do it. Thanks to companies like trigger platforms that are creating this opportunity for you to get what you need faster, not over taxing your IT department, not hiring outside developers at crazy prices who don’t understand your business. That is what we’re talking about. In a nutshell. We’re gonna get into all the particulars right now. But before we do that, gentlemen, let’s introduce each other a little bit, so the crowd knows who we’re talking to. And, uh, give me a chance to type in the comments and share some of this stuff. But let’s do this. Jesse since you’re on the top of my screen. And let’s do like a 92nd introduction. Tell people a little about yourself. And then we’re gonna come back in a second. You can introduce yourself first we’ll introduce trigger in just a moment. Okay. Yeah,

Jesse Meijers 

that’s good. Cool. Thanks. Yeah, so my name is Jesse I am one of the cofounders of trigger, which is a no code platform for businesses to build custom complex business applications think like warehouse management and other things. My background is actually in software engineering. I’m one of those coders that that I was talking about back in the day. And I started my first company at 19, during my university days, and I very quickly realized that building software was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. As I enter uni, I had this like dream of it being super easy or something like I would learn how to put my ideas into code and then distributed over the world. And it was going to be awesome. And well, then I hit first year of uni. And it turns out that I had to do a lot of maths and other things. I was like, yeah, it’s all important. But you know, Is it really this hard to build something? So later on, after my first company, I met my current business partner, Mark, and we had a company for a while together, which did a software project. So we sort of dove into that even more with outsourcing teams and everything. And we’re like, Oh, my God, it cannot be this hard. And that’s where the idea for trigger came along. So that’s sort of my journey through through the wonders world of software. Yeah.

Ira Bowman 

That is incredible. And you keep saying uni. The United States for those of you who don’t recognize him, he means College. He he he’s talking about university. I don’t know. I think when you say uni, I think of a unicycle No, no. Oh, no, I mean, university, you know that the thing that gives you a master’s degree thing where you go like, Oh, gee, thanks. I’m a little bit on the silly side, sometimes. Sorry, man, I can’t help myself. It’s early

Nathaniel Holzmann 

morning. It’s 8am. It’s really, in full

Ira Bowman 

disclosure, I’ve had about three sips of coffee. So I’m going to be pretty hard in a minute that Daniel is used to my shenanigans. But for those of you don’t know, Daniel is is one of my good friends out of Nashville, Tennessee. I’m gonna let him do his it’s not his favorite thing to do. Just so you know, he’s not he’s not a front of the camera guy. But I applaud you for your I think it’s the first time I’ve had you on the show, actually. Yes, yes, yes. Although we talked, we talked like this all the time. So yeah, we didn’t remember we’re actually going out live to the world. The Daniel, 90 seconds tell everybody who doesn’t already know you tell them a little bit about. So

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Nathaniel Holtzman. At a Nashville, we I actually similar to Jesse, I started in the software development world. And bout eight years ago, we founded a company called locode. Road. And what we do is we work with businesses because, again, being in the software world, just the I didn’t know that you were an engineer, or formerly an engineer, no, I’ve definitely got the same thing. On the product side, right product and project management. Traditional software is a lot of it is a lot more expensive and a lot harder than it needs to be. And so, you know, I’ve done that I’ve done everything from government work, to nonprofit work, to for profit, work, doing, understanding the business needs, and building amazing software, you know, with amazing developers to help deliver it. And when we saw this new opportunity, we’re like, oh, we gotta jump all over it. So that’s, that’s what got me to where I am today, we are an agency now doing software development. But our specific focus is low code and no code platforms. So we’re gonna get if anybody is hearing me say, low code, and no code, you just heard it, Daniel, reference it. We’re gonna get into that in a lot of detail in a minute. In fact, gentlemen, just to prepare you, one of the questions is, what’s the difference between low code and no code?

Ira Bowman 

So we’ll have

Jesse Meijers 

to pull us out of that bubble that we are in because

Ira Bowman 

there’s so many people out there that are watching right now. In fact, this this show is a little lighter than when I’m used to it. And I think the art of it. Well, we have 34 people watching us live on LinkedIn. But why? Gotta be there the DNA, right? The genetic code, or we think of ones and zeros, right? That’s about as far as most of us take it. So, let’s do let’s do this a little bit. Since Jesse, you run trigger. And we should probably introduce trigger, but we’ll do it after this question, because I think this is going to help set a foundation for everyone to understand what it is we’re even talking about, okay? They gotta they gotta like us and understand this a little bit before they care what we are and who what we do, right. So why don’t you take 90 seconds to kind of describe what no code is? And then the Daniel, I’m gonna come back to you, and I’ll have you describe what low code is in 90 seconds. Just as a foundational piece. We don’t have to, you know, verbally vomit on people, but just give them a foundation. What is it that we’re talking about? What is this low code? What is this no code, 90 seconds each gentleman?

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah. So when it comes to no code, because that’s where I’m most versed in. Basically, what it means is that you can you can build an application or an app without having to know anything about coding. So I was telling you the introduction, how I learned all these things. And there’s a lot of things that come come around when you have to develop an application that works well, that has good performance, like it’s fast. And these are things that you and I are now used to, but they’re all built by programmers, right. And so this is kind of akin to the DIY, in your own apartment, it’s now a little disclaimer, I’m currently in the process of having my new apartment renovated. And I am one of those people who cannot do that themselves. So if you’re like me, and you can’t do that yourself, because I’m bad with the wires, and with the with the plumbing and everything. I have people who do it for me, that are very versed at that. But it would go much faster if these were like building blocks that I could very easily put there myself in a configuration that I would want with a lot of freedom in how I put it together. And that is sort of what no code is, is like allowing me as a well we say citizen developer or a but let’s say sort of a regular person who’s not had the four years of college or university degree to actually know all the intricacies to build something regardless of not having that background. Yeah, like IRA. Exactly.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah. And I use it. Good. I didn’t know it was called Low code. But I didn’t write for a while I just didn’t realize,

Jesse Meijers 

yeah, many people might have might have heard of things like WordPress or Shopify, there’s a lot of these platforms that give you the ability to make something without having to code and that’s what no code is. And then you have a lot of different flavors in that obviously.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah. 100%. All right, Mr. Daniel, I think you have a little bit harder of the two. But actually,

Nathaniel Holzmann 

it’s okay, that the biggest difference between no code, which is what Jesse’s talking about, and low code is level of complexity. Because sometimes, you need to do a little bit more, right? You need integration between systems, you need systems to be able to talk to each other, I need to get from one system to another. Or, for example, with low code, it’s sometimes just adding what we call scripts, or think about like Excel, and what you’re doing with those Excel formulas, right? Sometimes, they’re pretty simple. And sometimes you can get stupid complex. I say that the the best, best way possible, because you can have, you know, so many parentheses, you’re like, Okay, I gotta count the parentheses, in and out of my formula, or Excel is gonna scream at me. Right? And that’s, that’s when we get into what we that’s the differentiation. It’s almost like how many parentheses that you’re dealing with, right? It. I mean, that’s, that’s it’s there. They’re almost it’s like, almost the same. The only difference is how many parentheses I think is a good way of putting it. Yeah, so that’s, that’s the difference. I mean, it’s sort of like WordPress, if you’re familiar with WordPress. WordPress is a good example. You can drag and drop. You’ve got a lot of great tools plugins like Divi that allow you to do, you know, just drag and drop, and then you can go in and edit the PHP. And

Ira Bowman 

you Yeah, I just confuses too much too fast. You’re

Nathaniel Holzmann 

right. Yeah, no, it’s just basically editing the underlying code, you can go in and hack it, so to speak. And that’s, that’s the benefit. Yeah,

Ira Bowman 

you know, that’s where I would say this. I’m working on an FAQ. So the FAQ asked the question, what’s the difference between no code and low code and tongue in cheek? I said, a lot of that answer is actually in the name, right. Yo, code, buddy. Anybody can do But you don’t need any any coding experience at all, you just have to understand what it is that you want to do which, Jesse, in your answer you had referenced citizen coder, we’ll get back into that a little bit. But that’s basically what we’re talking about here, somebody in a department who knows what they need, but doesn’t actually I can feel proud to create, it can use a no code tool and create it without any code with low code, they can create almost everything exactly the same except for usually, like Nathaniel was just referencing here, there’s something a little bit more robust here that you need. And you might need a little bit of code. And usually that’s for the finishing, or for the nuances that make your specific solution unique. And so you need a little bit of coding background to finish it. And that’s really the difference. Obviously, if you’re needing a low code tool, and you don’t know how to code, that’s where somebody like low code road comes into play. Like, okay, I know what I need, I don’t have the experience to do it. Can I find somebody out there who will help me the answer is a yes. The answer comes to us today in the form of the Daniel H. So Jesse, it’s obvious what low code road is helping with, you know, people figuring out what they need, and then kind of filling in the code that they don’t know how to provide. And then there’s more that they do, obviously, they’ll maintain the site and things like that, or the app and help. But a good morning Daymond Dan was one of my good friends. And I see you he comes by the way of Seattle, the Washington area, but he’s from South Dakota. So he’s good people. He’s, he’s out there in the heartland. Anyways, um, with low coat with low code technology. Unless you’re a coder, you’re going to need some help. Yeah, but with trigger being no code. So you guys are the platform that people are using? Are you also helping folks at trigger? Develop? Like, if they don’t know how to put it together? You doing that? Or? Or how do you handle that?

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah. So that’s, that’s a very interesting question. Because, obviously, yes, you can do it yourself. Right? But then Nathaniel is also one of our partners. So how does that work? Well, for us, what we see one is there, if you want to do something yourself, that’s, that’s fine. It’s good. You can do that we have customers who actually built some things themselves. And that’s nice, Mr. So, so that’s good. But there are certain situations where you where we see that people need some help. And it can either be that they want to have a sparring partner to discuss like, Okay, how do I best solve this process? How can I best handle this? Usually, these days, applications don’t don’t live on their own, they’re not isolated. So they are usually connected to maybe your bookkeeping system or some other systems in your app in your application landscape, as we would call it in a nice way. And with those connections, that’s something that often we see customers want some help with setting it up in a correct way. So what we usually do is we have a partner and a customer go at it together, and then slowly over time, parts of the application of a customer can do themselves, so that’s much faster. But then when they need some help, they can call the partner that they trust, because in the partner knows the application, they can help you with maybe new angles, maybe with their experience and other customers applications, to give you a new insight or a new way to handle something. And that is a really powerful combination. We feel. Yeah, that’s what we see, at least,

Nathaniel Holzmann 

I totally agree, Jesse, that’s, that’s exactly how we do things at locode Road is our goal is a partnership, a long term partnership, working with the client to make sure that they get exactly what they need. And the biggest thing that, you know, that we see with trigger is that is such a powerful platform to help businesses streamline their operations, and get good data insights. You know, the, the operations in particular, it’s a great workflow platform, helps you generate, you know, exactly what you need met that process management, which is why we love working with trigger, because it’s, yeah, it’s it’s a great platform for that. We’re gonna

Ira Bowman 

we’re gonna come back to trigger in a second. I’m kind of what I’m trying to do here, I think is funnel people from not knowing anything about low code or no code. Yeah, those of you who are joining who don’t, if you are, if you’re an avid at an avid user of any of these, right, you’ve used these tools, you’ve got a question specifically that you want to ask Jesse, your Nathaniel because look, this is rare access that you get direct to the top folks in an organization like trigger or low code Road, unfettered access, if you will. Go ahead and put those questions in the comments. Now I will come to them and I will ask them for you first in we’ll definitely get asked first. All right, but gentlemen, what I’m trying to do is take the people We’ll on the fringes who have never met. So

Nathaniel Holzmann 

I’m gonna jump in IRA, if it’s alright, I’m gonna jump in and say there are everyone in business is using. I haven’t yet found a business, let’s put it this way, I haven’t yet found a business that does not use Excel to manage information. Yeah, they’re there, they’re using Excel to either manage information or manage flow, right manage a process, and either Excel or like air table or some of the other spreadsheet ish platforms that are out there Google Sheets, right? And the reason is because your main system doesn’t work. And you’re you’re having to hack together information. And so we do is we come in and help solve those process problems. In particular, when you’re at one of two places, one, you’ve got it locked down. So as a business, it’s like, this is how we do things. This is how we solve this problem. And oh, by the way, happens to be Excel. Or it’s okay, I’ve got this process, I’ve got it locked down. But now I need to give it to three other people. Right, I need to scale it. And both of those issues are ones that need to be addressed. And dealt with before the company can grow. Yeah, so if you’re still in the early stages, where you’re making changes and stuff, low code, no code, those are great platforms. But it’s a little harder, because you’re still dialing it in that process. But once you’ve got it dialed in and locked in, that’s when no code really shines. Because now I need to grow it, I need to scale it, incorporate more people. And that’s what businesses need, is this platform to really grow because the only other option is custom software. And that’s way too expensive.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah, hang on. So you’ve covered like six topics, I was gonna ask you all in one sense, but that’s alright. We’ll come back to bite size. Yeah, remember, here’s, here’s, here’s where the crowd is, okay, because you guys live in this, you breathe it every day. So you totally understand what you’re saying and the logic behind it, and you’ve just walked a very logical path. The problem is most people watching are still lost, or like, what is no code with low code, right? So the very first thing that people have to understand is you’ve probably used a no code tool, somewhere along the way, and just didn’t realize that it was low code. So again, Jesse has referenced WordPress, I referenced WordPress earlier before, that Daniel just referenced air table and some other tools that you might be familiar with, but you might not and that’s okay. Here’s the bottom line. Most companies, when they start, they create solutions that fit a small organization. And then what happens if they’re successful, they grow. Now you have what I call growing pains, and you don’t necessarily know what to do about it? Well, in the old days, what you had to do was either had to hire somebody as an extreme expense to come in and learn your business, who knew coding, and then have them develop the software? Right? And that was expensive, and it took a lot of time. And then when they implemented it, what usually happened was, there had to be iterations, you know, versions. Okay, here’s the rough draft, oh, it doesn’t work. Because then then you’d have to, you’d have to meet with departments, right? And they would use it and go, Okay, well, it works good. But this doesn’t work. That doesn’t work. K will change it, because the person writing the code didn’t understand your business. Really, right. They don’t have been inside your business for three weeks or six weeks, or whatever that was, you know, they didn’t understand it. Well, a citizen coder, let’s get to this question, what is a citizen coder? And the reason why this is important, for those of you watching is because this is a term and a term that kind of freaks people out. But it really shouldn’t. Because it’s just a simple way to say, you’re not a coder. You’re You’re just a what? Jesse will let you answer this. You’re just a what if you’re citizen coder? What does that mean?

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah, I think I think that Gartner terms it citizen developer, so it’s like it’s they think it’s slightly away from the code for the scary part. Basically, yeah, cuz I mean, I look at code sometimes I go like, Oh my God that I write this this is scary stuff.

Ira Bowman 

Syntax errors all over the place. That’s what Yes,

Jesse Meijers 

yes. They don’t let me near any code. Trust me. It’s been too long. But, but no, so So basically, what it means, like we said is developing yourself and when I refer to theirs, I vividly remember this. The problem often with with developing software is that you ask for something and you think that, you know, it’s gonna be easy. So to, to give you a really interesting example, from early career from my business partner, me, a business partner had run this company, which built a system, which could create online, you could create the PDF, and it was for Memorial things. And so they sold it to this company, right? And then the company was like, Okay, we want to add this and this and this and this. And then the developer said, Well, yeah, we can do all those things. But it’s better to start all over. And as a business person, you go like, what? Yeah, like, how does that work, I had the awesome job of explaining to my business partner that that was actually a good thing, I was gonna go faster the second time. But that’s not a not a fun message. And sort of that there’s a big discrepancy between what you think you’re going to get from a business point of view. And what you can actually do as a programmer, because you’ve taken a certain road to a solution, and it no longer fits with new requirements. Yeah. So citizen development is actually to give you back that freedom, of being able to more closely to your business demands, build your software systems. And I would say that no catalog is mostly used. If you again, from my apartment, I have this concrete wall, and I have a wooden board. Now I’m familiar with both of them, but I need to make them work together. These are two applications, and they need to work together somehow, right? I need a process to make them work. And I’ve got with loco to note, I’ve got screws, I’ve got machines, I’ve got glue, I’ve got everything there to make it work. Obviously, I still need to know a little bit about what I want. Otherwise, I might end up with a vertical shelf instead of a horizontal one, which won’t make my books stand on them as easily as the horizontal one.

Ira Bowman 

It that just thinks how it works. It’s interesting. Okay, so one of the one of the key differences between the no code and the low code, a lot of times is UX UI. And for those of you aren’t familiar with UX UI, that term that’s user experience user interface, right? So a no code tool, by itself is going to create a general solution. But it looks the same for everybody low code, can take that solution with a little bit of coding finishing. CSS, man, I don’t want to get off into the weeds here. But that’s, so instead of it just functioning, to use your analogy, right, the apartment, the other floor, the floor, is structurally good with no code. But it may not look great, you might see the seams and stuff. So low code would come in, and you add that custom finish so that the user interface user experience is better, and it fits your brand. Is that correct? Nathaniel? Am I Am I right on that? Again, this is not my expertise. This is just Yeah, I I would I don’t you?

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Yes. So I honestly think it’s more like the integrations that Jesse was talking about. And making sure we’ve got the right connectors and the right pieces talking to each other. Most of the time, the platforms that we’re dealing with flow code and have great user experience. Great. The the, the way things look, and the way things feel, is really good. I mean, one of my go to analogies is Legos, right? We love we love building Legos. And with Legos, you can build just about anything you want. And so the question is, how do I get my specific Lego construction? Why take the right pieces and put them together, and then I have my Lego construct. And they all look different, right? That your Lego construction and my Lego construction are gonna look very different. Even if we’re both told build a wagon, right? Or build a house, my house and your house are gonna look different. The blocks are the same, though. And the reason that they’re different is because of the way we place them together. And that’s what though, that’s what no code is all about. That’s the benefit of these things is I can take those different blocks, put them together. And then if I need special tools or special things, that’s where no code or excuse me, low code comes in. But it’s not that that it’s just a different way of connecting things and making things talk to each other. So yeah, it’s, I think that’s a best example to compare that. But it’s not that the user experience or user interface is tweak.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah, I think I think we’re talking about slightly different things. You’re talking about inside the tool I’m talking about. That’s okay. Well, we’ll come back, we’ll come back around to this. We’ve got a question from Brady. It’s actually more of a statement, but it is about Excel spreadsheets. And we wrote a tongue in cheek article for locode road called Escape Excel hell. So certainly, that is something that a lot of people will come to these tools about data. So let’s do this gentleman, what let’s take a little bit of a pause on what no code and low code is, let’s talk about the companies, we’re going to now introduce the foundation. So people have problems that they need to solve. Usually, they’re in the form of growing pains, but from there, how you do it and what you address. Let’s learn a little bit about your companies. And then we’ll go we’ll go into so again, just to keep our theme, Jesse, we’ll have you go first. And we’ll we’ll talk about trigger. And then Daniel will come back and allow you to talk about low code road so we can kind of get the idea of what your companies offer for no code and low code solutions. Here we go. I’m just gonna switch to the screen right there. All right. So we’re at trigger, I teased Jesse, I said, it’s supposed to be er, but that’s because I’m American. And we do it. We do it like that. So trigger is what jazzy?

Jesse Meijers 

Well, trigger is, as it says, Here, it’s a business application platform. So you can build a business application with trigger. What is that? Well, business application, for example, is a warehouse management system, or a customer relation management system. If you want to have a custom, we mostly focus on internal applications and business to business applications. That’s what what we’re good at. Like, if you want a consumer facing application, we’ll tell you to maybe go for a logo solution or something else that require a get you more customization. Because usually, that’s what’s needed. So with trigger, you can build these really advanced systems with a lot of logic, business rules, etc. And one really good example of that, is, we saw that the comment about about the Excel, and people can use that we have customers who say like, yeah, so we have this Excel, right. And there’s like a bunch of macros in there and everything. And we don’t dare to touch it anymore. Because the person who made it has left, you go and we open the sheet, and we go to sell a two. And we just, we just faint. Like, oh my God, what’s going on. So when you when you sort of encounter those things, that is when people are looking for solutions to make something that is easier to manage easier to do to also to use for them. And that’s where trigger comes in for those sorts of custom internal tools. Usually, we do, for example, projects that do customer portals for business to business. But but one of the bigger ones in, I think, in the US, that you might know is NCR national cash register, who uses a trigger for their warehouse management system. And they use it around the globe just to save on shipping costs, for example. So there’s a lot of ways you can do this. As I was mentioning, if you know your process well, and you know where you can make savings, then a low TCO tool can really quickly get you that savings and especially if it’s internal processes that you want to automate or streamline trigger is fantastic for that. Yep.

Ira Bowman 

So one of the things I think that no code does really, really well is to help lighten the load for paperwork. Right. So if you have a paper heavy process in your business, and you’re looking for a way to streamline it, to automate it, if you will. And that is that is what I think people should really be coming to you trigger and to locode Road to explore my right in that.

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah, I think so. Where paper can also can also be sort of now digitalized with Excel or something else where you shoot over these files. To others. I mean, that’s that’s, there’s, there’s a difference between digitizing something and digitalizing something you can you can make any paper into digital documents, but that doesn’t mean that you can actually then automate your process around it. So yeah, but but those processes really are, I would say the low hanging fruits that you can, you can take out of your company very quickly, and they give you a lot of time savings. And so also with time savings, obviously, either increases in revenue or savings in costs, depending on how you handle the results of that.

Ira Bowman 

Let’s let’s one more follow up question. I’m gonna switch over to Daniel and we’re going to talk about locode road here in just a second. But you have put out a report earlier last week that I’m still reading it’s fascinating data. But one of the things that caught my attention was the Now of return on investment, so you’re talking about low hanging fruit digitizing. And in streamlining this process, making it faster, more effective, you don’t have to necessarily worry about stepping on an exploding mind landmine in an old Excel data sheet, you know, Excel sheet like okay, that formula is set, we can’t change it, because who knows who even wrote it at this point, right? Can you give us an idea? If somebody’s watching, let’s say their business manager or business owner, and they’ve not updated their their processes, they’re still using the original processes and and they know they need some help? What kind of return on investment? Can they expect? On? Yeah, that kind of that kind of a project?

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah, so so this is gonna, this is gonna sound incredible. Or it is

Ira Bowman 

I’m asking? Because

Jesse Meijers 

it is. It’s, yeah, my favorite movie character would say it is inconceivable. But, but it’s 20 560% On average, which is crazy. So that’s, that’s not me not being an English native speaker.

Ira Bowman 

Business Owner, did you hear that business owner? Like, I’m not trying to like, say you need to buy a product or do something right now, look, this is just information. But if somebody comes to me and says there’s an ROI of 20 560%. That’s not the right way to say that mathematically. But you understand what I’m saying? 256 0% is something that any business owner, every business owner should like immediately take pause and go. What? Like that’s a big number. Yeah, my profit margin is not 2560. So if I can do anything that will increase my my return on investment by 2560. I think that that’s something that they want to look at. All right. Yeah. So Nikki, Desi, thank you for explaining what trigger is for adding a little levity to the conversation and for giving us that big number, the Daniel no pressure, but we need to top 2560 here somehow, I don’t know. But we can. Oh, we can. When you’re when you’re talking about low code Road, which I would like you to do. Now, I have a follow up question that might be business owners stay tuned, because there might be something that’s even better than 2560. And I’ll give you a hint comes by the way of the one resource you can’t get more of right? You can’t buy more of this. Alright, let’s, let’s go to Daniel, give us a rundown on who is low code wrote, and I’m going to, I’m going to put it up on the screen. So we can Yeah, absolutely.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

So Locard wrote, we’re we’re development agency, we partner with businesses. And we help them achieve those types of ROI that we’re talking about here. We work with them triggers one of the major tools that we use, we’re currently building a trigger platform for a publishing company that are there, they’re going to be using trigger to manage their entire author flow when we’re done. And we’re excited about that. Because that’s going to allow them to get away from a bunch of other tools that they’re using, centralized into one single platform, and then have their entire team working on the platform with reporting as well. So, you know, the executive team isn’t going to have to dig into the weeds. So we do a lot of different things. We do no code development, low code development. And we do the integrations as well. We call that fusion. That’s a Microsoft term that they they put together. And then we also provide support for our partners.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah, so yeah. And I’m one of them at Bowman digital media, I can I can speak to this firsthand after the solution is created. What I love about it is, you know, you’re not, you’re not

Nathaniel Holzmann 

no, we don’t go away. We

Ira Bowman 

go away. They continue to help you they check in on me to make sure like, hey, what about this? What about that? I love it. I want to I want to just point this out. We had put this up a few weeks ago. This is no code and low code development tools can change business 1000 times for the better, which is not an exaggeration, as you just heard from Jesse a second ago, right? What did he say? 25 60%. Roi. That’s what you can expect on average. Some of them are more. Right. But the Daniel, I’m showing this to people if they are not familiar with what no code and low code is, they can come here and they can get a deep dive. Yeah, we access we talked about trigger Jesse be happy, right? There’s a link to trigger right there. We talked, we talked about some of these tools, which we haven’t really gotten into, we’re gonna get into that in a little bit. We’re going to talk about no code tools, and then low code tools in just a minute. But, and we’ve talked about the differences, but I love it. So we’re kind of following this story in law. I have the differences just so that we are our audience. And we still have 34 People live watching us on LinkedIn right now, which is good. We’re holding our attention. So now we’re gonna get a little bit deeper into it a low code tool. Why does the world need low code? And no code solutions? What’s what’s the point of it? And then I’m going to ask you a question related to this right here as a follow up. So what what would you say? What’s the biggest What’s the biggest reason they need? Maybe not even the no code? What what? Why do we need low code? Right there? No code is for people like me, I’m not a coder, I want a solution. I’m going to go to trigger or another no code platform. I’m going to try to create one by myself. Why does the world need low code?

Nathaniel Holzmann 

You want me to take this one, Jesse?

Ira Bowman 

No, I do. Yeah. All right. No

Jesse Meijers 

more trustworthy source when it comes to the general answer.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

The reason IRA is because we need solutions, the number of developers in the world today, compared to the demand, the supply and demand ratio is way out, out. Outside, the number of developers even, even here in America, with all the layoffs, they’re all getting snapped up. All of the people that are losing their jobs, they’re getting snapped up right away. And the reason is that there’s so much more of a demand than there is a supply. And so for a business for the average business in order to grow, in order to improve, you know what we were talking about earlier, they need to have tools to help them do that. And that’s what low code no code are all about. It gives them those tools that gives them that ability to grow, to scale their operations, to streamline their processes, and get visibility into the operations that are already happening around the organization. Organizations, large and small, are doing this I work for a government agency, here in Tennessee, they’re switching all of their operations away from their developers not because they don’t have, they’re going to lay off their developers because their developers are too busy. So they’re switching to low code and no code platforms to solve their business needs, even at large government organizations, because of the fact that there’s just not enough bandwidth in the market space to supply the demand that already exists.

Ira Bowman 

There is a huge burden on IT departments around Absolutely, to Daniel was talking about here, right now, I run a nonprofit called Project help you grow. And I have noticed what Nathaniel is talking about, there is still a high demand for people who know how to code. Right. So one of the questions that I get asked, and I see this online, as I’m doing research for, for my work with low code road, right. In full disclosure, we help with the marketing at local good. So one of the things that that I see on a regular basis is this question. It’s usually tongue in cheek, I think, right people being a little snippy. But what they’re asking is that Daniel is, will no code and low code tools. Make coders obsolete?

Nathaniel Holzmann 

No, absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s giving them leverage, right. It’s giving them leverage to empower more people to solve their needs. Without using the you know, the skills of a coder. It’s it’s like, you know, I don’t know it think about like, kitchen utensils. Is is is having electric machines that will they’ll do your bread baking gonna put bakers out of business. Yeah, no, it doesn’t you know, I don’t I

Ira Bowman 

here’s, here’s a great analogy for me and for my audience. Everybody in the world, I think knows what this point the IRA Bowman is a professional photographer, right. But how many people have you know these cameras on their phones, you could take a picture and these picture the picture quality is getting better and better and better three megapixels, you can you can snap photos, I got a pro Max and full disclosure, I love it. And I got this particular one because at the time I had the best camera on it. So I’m like, if I’m going to have a phone, this can become redundancy. If all my cameras fail and everything. I’m totally out. Look, I got something right. But let me ask you guys this question. Do you think photographers, the number of photographers in the world has gone down since these have come out or up? A lot of people might be surprised with this. But there’s more photographers now than ever before. So it’s not you know, when you’re talking about low code and no code solutions, the one thing if you’re a coder out there, to our point earlier, you’re in high demand. And we have a question. Actually, this doesn’t really fit our show topic. It does loosely, right? Like, should I learn Ruby? Should I learn Python? What, you know, C++? What, what language should I learn?

Jesse Meijers 

Well, let me with with a background in coding answers with the worst answer ever is it depends.

Ira Bowman 

I love talking about Java here.

Jesse Meijers 

Well, I mean, I’m a fan of certain things. But the thing is, there’s so many different ones that have different applicability. And this is exactly what makes it so hard to develop, right? So on our team, right, we have database specialists, we have data specialists, we have infrastructure engineers, we have JavaScript engineers, we have C sharp engineers, we have so many different languages only in one tool, because you then don’t have to worry about that. So it really depends on what you want to achieve. And I would say that more important than to learning a specific language is actually learning what’s behind that, like the concept of it. So if you’re going to anything, start with the concepts and understanding how computers work internally first, and then build it up from there. And in terms of sort of the no code, and low code use, I would say that, as you say, Nathaniel, like it leverages coders, right? So imagine that you’re a hotshot Formula One race car mechanic, right? You’re really good at your job. But you’re also helping people who have a broken side mirror. That’s sort of the thing like these people with these skills, these coders, they’re like the Formula One type mechanics? Do we want to put them on a Formula One car, where they can actually like, really work with the with the really solution? Promises? Or do we want them to solve our blinker not working or whatever small problem I have with the dashboard light not going on? When I open the dash?

Ira Bowman 

Or nothing? I’ll take it even further than that. Right? Let’s say you have a team of Formula One mechanics just to stay inside this analogy, right? You’ve got three of them. But you’ve got 562 cars in line. Yeah. Right. And the wait, the queue, the queue to get the job out is, you know, 18 months, 24 months long. And correct me if I’m wrong, because this goes back to the follow up question for Nathaniel that we didn’t get to. But we’re gonna get to it right now, in this analogy. You don’t necessarily need that Formula One mechanic or NASCAR to bring it back to America, right? You don’t need that NASCAR Formula One mechanic, you don’t need these guys who have all these skills to create this program with no code and low code tools. It’s a DIY, this is a popular phrase in America right now, DIY, do it yourself. These are ways that have tools that have been created to help you do it yourself. And low code where we haven’t gone with this yet. But I want to bring it in right here. Okay, we’re low code tools still help even the Formula One mechanic or the NASCAR mechanics, these professional racecar pit crews? Right, I’ve got some redneck screaming. Yeah. All right, here we go. Yeah, um, they can get it done faster. Just because you know how to custom code, everything doesn’t mean you need to custom code everything, right? So you might have some stuff that does need to be finagle right at the end with the low code. And that’s why it’s low code and no code, right? If you don’t need any code, and it’s no code, if you need a little bit to finish it, then it’s low code. So here’s the thing, you’ve got those 562 cars in line, I can get them through the line so much faster, even if I need the mechanic with one of the three mechanics to touch it up. But now I’m processing the order faster, and I can get to that 2500. And or Yeah, 2560. I can get that ROI. With what with time, it makes time faster. And as I referenced before, and that Daniel that’s the one thing we can’t it’s a resource none of us can buy. Absolutely. So low code, low code tools. One of the to me, one of the biggest advantages low code tools is, you know, helping your existing staff to get things done faster. Am I right? Yeah,

Nathaniel Holzmann 

absolutely. Absolutely. It’s streamlining those processes that normally take hours. We’ve worked with companies and cut it from, you know, for eight hours on a day to 15 minutes. You know, so all of a sudden, that person that was working for somewhere between a half day and a full day, to get ready to have to get ready for a weekly meeting. They’re no longer involved. They’ve got At time, right, it is the most important, the most precious thing that we have generating reports, analytics, PDFs, all of these things, invoicing, taking, you know, all of the things and Jesse, you could probably come up with a whole bunch more. But you know, all of these things that we’re doing, we can, we can easily start with a baseline, and then customize it and tweak it. For a business’s specific needs.

Ira Bowman 

Let me let me interject something that is interesting and relevant to the audience watching the show. We have business owners, we have job seekers, we have people that are currently employed to we have a whole variety of people watching still at 34 currently watching us live on LinkedIn, which is great. Have you guys heard of this term? Quiet quitting? Oh, yeah, right. For those of you who are not familiar with this term, it’s an HR kind of a term or recruiters kind of a term what it means is employees are still there. But they’ve quit going the extra mile. Like that’s not my job, I’m frustrated, I This is dumb, that I have to do this tedious crap, I’m still using Excel spreadsheets from 1987. Because nobody’s taking the time to update and give me a modern tool. I’m frustrated. So I’m not giving you extra effort anymore. In fact, I’m looking for a job probably, while you’re paying me. Okay, yep. But this is one of those things that can help reduce that frustration. Keep your top talent happy by bringing in these resources. So let’s talk about this a little bit. Right? How to, how do we do it? Jesse, if I asked you you had mentioned earlier, NCR and or the cash register company, right? And you talked about logistics. So let’s just let’s just walk through like a case study real quick. And then the Daniel’s gonna come back to you and ask the same thing. Can you give us a synopsis, a real life situation?

Jesse Meijer 

I’ll do a different company, though.

Ira Bowman 

It can be hypothetical.

Jesse Meijers 

It’s no, but this is a really cool thing. It’s it’s a Dutch company that makes sustainable small houses. And they’re modular. And they, they use trigger. First and foremost, they have a CNC machine. And for those who don’t know what a C in C machine is, a CNC machine is a cutting machine. For materials, in this case, wood. So you have one step, make your iPhone, those are more advanced, you have the ones that make what you program them, and they cut very specific, very exact shapes. So the problem the head was programming this thing with the right drawings to, to cut the right shapes, and how long does that take the some shape take longer, blah, blah, blah. So it’s important that this machine runs all the time because they’re expensive, right? But they made an application to just do the planning, this was their first step. And then when you have one part of that automated, or you want to call it a support application for that. And then the next question comes in, and you’re like, what’s the next thing that we can automate? Right? So now you have a person who has saved that time? It’s nothing, maybe from four or eight hours to like, 15 minutes, right? And the next question is, from the next department over like this is this is just production of the of the parts. But then from assembly, you get this question like, yeah, oh, this part didn’t come out, right, or it broke I, you know, I broke it during assembly, can we push it to the top of the stack to be produced as fast as possible. Now, this used to take a lot of time before. But now because it’s all automated, it can just push it into the top of the stack, the application will calculate exactly how long it takes, make sure that it pushes it in the right order. So the user just has to click the right drawing on a machine when it starts it in. That’s it. And so that sort of iterative improvement process where you go like, Okay, what’s the next thing that we can improve? We actually wrote a whole white paper on how you can do this with some some sort of hands on tool. So this is not, I’m not saying that, this, this doesn’t even relate to trigger itself, necessarily just you can do this with anything, but it’s a way to continuously improve your business, that time saving, and then reusing that time to save more time. That is, I think the key to this sort of automation and improvement process

Ira Bowman 

100%. And for those of you who don’t understand what he’s talking about, he’s talking about reducing queue time reducing production time, which means you’re turning over your orders faster, and you’re generating more revenue, your sales team can go out and bring in more more clients, more projects, turn more revenue, and also your employees are more productive, because now instead of waiting 15 minutes for the pre press operators just to get a little bit technical here on who’s doing what, but those pre press operators who are getting the files ready to put And into that CNC Q, don’t have as much work to do on that. So now they’re turning, you know what I mean, it’s just more efficient all the way across the board, you can easily run leaner, meaning, you know, you can necessarily not have to replace everybody when they when they go somewhere else. Or you can bring in more projects and, and increase your bottom line, you know, your, your top line and your bottom line. So Nathaniel,

Jesse Meijers 

also in one small thing is that it’s a big one, but it’s for the people that you were talking about the sound of quitters. This is something that really gives them a really good sense of purpose. And they’d rather be working on improving processes and everything, then, you know, just clicking the next button on the CNC machine all day long,

Ira Bowman 

absorbed waiting or waiting 15 minutes for something to process, right. It’s like, okay, well, I have nothing to do, I’m gonna go to take a coffee break or whatever, you know, people at the end of the day, they want to feel like they they accomplished something most of us do. Right? Yeah, Daniel, let’s switch this over to the low code. Probably very similar. Some of the things that could that can be done, or I think you could do the exact same thing, frankly, if you want to give maybe another case study on another.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Yeah. So So here’s a here’s a fun one. Installation, right. installations. Can you guys hear me? We can? Yep. Yep. All right. Sorry. installations for installing tracking inventory and installations, and scheduling them, right. We work with a company out in St. Louis. They do. They do insulate insulation, right? They insulate houses. And so they were using clipboards each day was a separate clipboard. And that’s how they knew what installations they were doing that day for their

Ira Bowman 

equipment. And that was their project management. Their project

Nathaniel Holzmann 

management was literally paper on a clipboard, and they had 20 clipboards on the wall. That’s it, and you know, one for each day of the month. And so then they would go up to that day’s clipboard, pull it off, look through the inventory, and then they would have to fill the trucks based on their guesses as to what they need. We got that streamline now they’ve got photo capability. Now they’ve got inventory management, they can track exactly what got put on the truck, knowing exactly how much is left at the end of the day. All of the things that reduce inventory, increase process management, and the company was very happy with that at St. Louis. So they expanded it to their Kansas City Chiefs. Sorry, their their Kansas City branch as well. So

Ira Bowman 

don’t say the CI their warehouse.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Names. Yeah, sorry.

Ira Bowman 

Sorry. But, you know, there’s something we haven’t really talked about. And it’s it’s a great segue, but loss prevention for those of you right inventory. So when you’re when you are animating this process, and you’re going from paper and clipboards how archaic to an automated system, a digital system, that is one of the things not only for efficiency to reduce, how much you need to buy, but also how much is escaping out the side door because a lot of these folks have side hustles. And instead of using their own materials, buying raw materials, they can, you know, take stuff off the truck, when it’s a paper product or a paper managed product or process. It can be easier to steal, unfortunately, then when things are cataloged digitally and maintained by a manager and have extra oversight. Let’s do this. This is one thing that I see when I Google, no code and low code. You You and I have talked about this several times with Daniel Jesse, we talked about this in the greenroom prep. For the show. Security seems to be one of the questions. That hijackers the Trojan horses, the syntax that’s exposed, right, there’s backdoor access the nefarious hacker, you know what I mean? So let’s just get this out, you know, this, this elephant that’s in the room? What What would you say if I said, no code and low code is blank? Safe? Is it more safe? Is it just as safe? Is it less safe? Let’s talk about safety a little bit, if I’m going to use a no code tool to help automate a solution for my business, and my higher risk than if I hire a professional to do it. Or I’m at lower risk or where am I at on that scale? We’re gonna flip this around. Daniel, I’ve been picking on you last every time I’m gonna pick on you first. Give me your thoughts on this. Let’s do like 32nd answer here.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Well, all right. So there’s there’s two sides compared to the what you’ve got right now. Right? So there’s an opportunity Cost question. We’re talking about loss management, right inventory management. So if you’re dealing with opportunity costs versus what we’ve got right now, you’re heads and shoulders better off going with a low code or no code solution, rather than what you have right now, generally speaking, compared with a full stack development, you’re still at risk. Either way, you have to have a great trusted partner that you’re going to be working with for the long term. And we do a lot of vetting with all of our different companies that we work with because of that. And then I think, if you even go with traditional software development, you’ve now become a software company, you are now needing to maintain that software for the life of the software, it’s not something that you can just turn off, you can say, oh, build this and then go away. Because now you now you’re even if it was built with the best practices two years ago, you’re now at massive risk, because of the new technologies, the new risks that people have found, the new things that we’re dealing with. And so I would say, yeah, there’s no reason not to go with a low code, or no code solution, because it’s a better solution for the organization.

Ira Bowman 

And to that, to that point, we were talking about being locked in, you know, there’s people out there right now who are using x XP computers with with, you know, not

Nathaniel Holzmann 

to the IRS. Yeah, there’s,

Ira Bowman 

there’s still, they’re still on this old technology, they can’t upgrade why? Because the software that they have, they can’t find anyone to maintain it anymore. They were they’ve created the grandfather, then there’s no hardware that works anymore to software companies out of business. So they’re locked into this old old and talked about vulnerabilities when we’re talking about security, which is the question at hand here. Now you’re really at risk because you’re using stuff that nobody’s patching for and protecting you anymore. Correct. All right, Jesse, what would you say to that question? So I’m using no code or low code solution? I’m at what type of risk? I’m at no risk, lower risk, same amount of risk or higher risk than if I don’t use it? Well, obviously,

Jesse Meijers 

I’m gonna say that you’re at a much lower risk, but I can back it up.

Ira Bowman 

I press academic ignition here. Yeah, so

Jesse Meijers 

So one of the things that, for example, when we do a release of our platform, right, we have this test suite, automated test suite, and it runs for a week, it’s like, it just goes through all these cases, retests all of these defects that we’ve found internally in the past and everything and checks them. It runs, penetration tests, penetration tests are trying to hack the system automatically. So it does Google hacking. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. In? Well, we tried to make it non ethical. We tried to hack our system, obviously, ourselves, but but the thing is that what you do with that is, as Nathaniel was saying, like you if you build your own software, this is also what you have to do. And again, it comes down to being a specialist or not. So we specialize in this. And this is also where you can see that we are a technology company, and we don’t provide the services on that. We want to specialize in making sure that you get the best platform with automatic upgrades, so you don’t have to worry about the security. So is it 100% foolproof? No, no one can prove I can sort of say like, No, this is this is 1%. foolproof, it’s like you can’t build a building that no one can break into. Like you don’t

Ira Bowman 

want to you don’t want to make the Titanic of software. Tell everybody to unsinkable. Yeah, exactly.

Jesse Meijers 

But you can you can keep on improving over time without harassing a customer user all the time without there’s a new version of this or, you know, but you still get the updates with the latest security patches and everything. And that is a very big advantage. Because as a business user, honestly, we have this question about which language should I learn? Okay, this is gonna sound weird coming from me, but who cares? Yeah. Okay, which language it is, Who cares what technologies underneath it? We care about the 25 60%. We care about the time winds that we’d get, if it’s if it’s built with a paperclip and a pen. If it does its job, and it’s safe, then I’m good with that. So you should not be focusing on sort of the intricacies there. And you shouldn’t want to become a software company per se. You want to become a software using a company that uses software and preferably custom because that gives you your competitive advantage to the world. Absolutely. Instead of instead, instead of trying to mimic what we do, we’re good.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Yeah. No, I mean, no one no one’s an email company anymore, right? It used to be that we had to, we had to have our own email servers and all this kind of stuff. Today, we just go to Google or Microsoft or or some other company and say, Oh, give me email. And they do it for you. Why? Because I don’t, it’s so much cheaper, so much better. And I don’t have to worry about headaches like spam and making sure all of my i’s are dotted T’s are crossed that the emails delivered correctly. All of that is handled by some other company for me. And that’s, that’s exactly what low code no code do.

Ira Bowman 

Well, I will tell you that there’s there’s tools inside. I’m gonna do something I didn’t really plan on doing this. But I just want to, I want to give people an example.

Jesse Meijers 

We did not rehearse this. We did not rehearse. Rehearse. You know, I am I did not have anything to do with it if it goes wrong.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I mentioned this earlier, I’m a photographer, you know, saying it, my computer’s a little slow when I’m sharing my screens, but inside, I took the shirt off some reason, okay. So inside of Photoshop I used to take for ever was something called masks, right? So what we do is if we were to open a file you know, seeing it, like I said, I really did not plan to do this. So this is going to take just a second. So inside, if you’re, if you’re in Photoshop, and you wanted to, you know, take an image. And let’s just say I wanted to take this one, I don’t know why X I’ll take this one, it’ll be easier. Okay, so there’s IRA in a green shirt, right. So if I want to take this file in the past, what I would have to do to get the background removed, right, this is this is a tool that you see a lot of people using, what I would have to do is I would have to create a another layer, or a mask layer. Okay, so in this case, I would just mask it up. And then I would come here with a tool, and I’d have to be in black and white mode, which I can’t even really show you on this screen, which set up oops, and I was trying to see if I can show you guys. Yeah, this isn’t gonna hang on. This is a bad demo. A quick demo, but a bad demo. Let’s just make this bigger. Okay. So now what I could do is I could come here, I would have to create a new layer, or it would be, you know, crystal clear underneath, right? Okay. But instead what I can do now, to get to that under layer, if I want, what I can do is I can do this, I can hit this guy here. And then I can hit image. I’m sorry, select. And I can hit slug subject, it will take a second to calculate. But it’s going to create a dotted line all the way around the outside of the main image. Now notice, I didn’t have to tell it, what the subject of the photo was, which is a little bit creepy. When you think about it, right? This is artificial intelligence that’s doing this. But this is all a part of what you guys do in the background. Right? You create these, you create this code that says okay, how to identify the main object. And then what am I going to do with this, I’m actually going to remove the background automatically. I was watching the Superbowl last night, Daniel, reference the chiefs. It’s painful for me because I’m a Raiders fan. It is what it is. Jesse, this just American football anyways. So now see how it’s, I’m blinking. Now, what I can do is I can hit this button. And it’s going to automatically take all this stuff away for me. And then I can take that. And I can put it inside of a graphic like that, without having to spend hours, I used to spend anywhere from a half hour to a couple hours. So I’m going to show you because that wasn’t really planned. But that that process used to take me a half hour to a couple hours, just for one one image. Right? Now I can do it. I’m just telling you, I can do it in about 90 seconds. On average, it takes it usually about 60 seconds. To find it, it takes me a couple more seconds to hit the the mask layer. And then I have to save it, which takes another 1015 seconds and I’m done. And now I can take that PNG file. And I can put it over the top of anything I want or underneath or in the middle. However I want to do it. But I was watching a commercial last night for a Google phone that’s coming out and it’s like, you know, take the and so he said, Oh, I could get rid of my exes. I don’t remember the commercial. But, you know, I was like, you know, we’ve been able to do that for a long time. That’s not relatively new. But that is no code and low code technology. You know, that’s what I mean when I say people have been using this type of of programming for a long time just probably unaware. are that they’re using it. So either a tool that was created with no code and low code technology, or they’ve been creating, like we said, with WordPress, probably the most common one that I can think of in my space, where we’re using, you know, these no code, drag and drop tools is another way to say it. Right? You’re not creating the code and going in and editing lines of syntax and hoping that you got it correct. You didn’t miss a character, or add an extra space or whatever, it was a parenthesis instead of a bracket, you know what I mean? Like there’s all kinds of simple errors. And that’s one thing that as we start to wrap this up, because we’re in overtime. Now, as we start to wrap this up, one of the things that I just want to tell people like, if you’re not sure where to go with this, one of the things that I suggest that you do go over to low code road, you can read about trigger, because low code road is a vendor for trigger, they utilize the trigger platform to create projects. How do I know because they use trigger to create a product for me at Bowman digital media, that’s how I know firsthand experience. Okay, but you can talk with and this is how it started. I had a conversation with Nathaniel, about how I was doing things. And that’s all he really wanted me to do was like, just go through your everyday processes within how do you communicate with your team? How do you communicate with your vendors? How do you communicate with your clients? Let’s look at your workflow. And then he came up with some ideas and said, hey, what if we were to do this? Would that be cool? And I’m like, yeah, that’d be awesome. Right? It was all about making it more efficient, that for me, as the business owner, I was excited because now I have a way to manage my business in a way that takes less time. So I can do one or two things, I can either get more sleep, or I can pile it on higher and deeper and make more money. And both are appealing for different reasons. So as we come to a conclusion, as we start to draw this to conclusion, I want to open it up to you guys, Jesse, and Daniel, let’s go into Daniel first. What would be something? We haven’t talked about it yet? And you’re like, man, we should have covered this? Is there anything like that? Or like, you know, this would have been really good to talk about? Is there anything like that, that I forgot? Because this is not my expertise to ask you.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Hmm, I might have to piggyback on something Jesse says, but honestly, we I think I think we’ve covered the key components. Okay, good. I think we have a huge, huge value add huge ROI. For a business to go ahead and streamline their operations, and low code, no code are the best ways to do that. In today’s marketplace.

Ira Bowman 

We wrote an article on locode Road, and we’re talking about Jesse, I’m gonna keep going back to his number 2560 ROI, because it’s just a huge number. In the article we didn’t we didn’t go nearly that now I’m thinking I need to change that article. But in the article, we talked about ROI of 10 times, right? So it’s 1010 times cheaper, is what we’re talking about in the article. But I make a bold claim in the article about being 100 times faster. So if you if you’re watching this, and you’re looking for a way to speed things up and make things less expensive, we call it in the article, we call it 1000 times better. This is what we’re talking about. It’s saving time and money, which is every business owners dream how to do things faster, and less expensive. And eliminate mistakes and eliminate the like we’re talking about. Daniel, I can tell you horror stories. Yeah, well, I loved I loved what you were talking about from the clipboard example. Or the person who’s now in the software business, Jesse, who they can’t, they can’t update their systems because that company’s gone. Like you’ve given yourself so much more options. So let’s do this. Jessie, do you? Is it first of all, before I get to this final question for each of you, is there anything that I forgot you like, you know what, I wish you had asked me about that. Or we should have talked about this too? Did I miss anything?

Jesse Meijers 

No, I think this is a really good opening thing. I do have at the end, a pro tip that anyone can use in their business without going Yeah,

Ira Bowman 

well thank you for leading into that because that’s my next question is okay, if you could leave the audience then with any one final thought like okay, we don’t know where they are. The audiences can be from like I said, there’s business owners watching for sure. There are job seekers out there for sure. Their department managers out there for sure. There are entrepreneurs there are even coders who are watching this going, you know, should I step into the fray and become a no code low code specialist or should I continue to work on you know, like I said, any of the the one particular codes that they’re they’re mastering that Daniel, what would what would your advice be or your one pro tip as Jesse’s gonna leave us with the product? If what would you like to leave the audience with?

Nathaniel Holzmann 

I think a pro tip is definitely look at it. Definitely look at low code, no code, I believe it’s the direction of the future. It is very much the wild west right now. And what we are doing is getting the we are we are seeing that this is going to be the new thing for the next 10 to 20 years minimum, similar to the way the World Wide Web was back in 2000.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah, no, I agree. 100% agree everything that I’ve I’m a marketing guy. All the research, I’ve done all the stories that I’ve read everything points to in fact, even you know, the report that you guys put out, just eat the PDF report. You know, the trends all look like this is only starting to gain steam. Yes. isn’t even this isn’t anywhere yet. We’re still in the starting blocks. Watch. Yeah. So if you’re if you’re an aspiring coder out there, don’t stop learning the code, because that will help make you have more valuable asset to companies like trigger to companies like love code road, you can become that. How do we say it formula? One mechanic? Yes, yeah.

Jesse Meijers 

Enjoy that mechanical process. If you want to solve the business problem, learn no code, if you want to solve the technical problems, become a coder, because that’s the choice. And both are good. It’s not like, like, the one thing is worse or better than the other. They’re just different in terms of what you what you can achieve with them. Right? That’s, that’s, that’s the difference.

Ira Bowman 

You can work inside the no code and low code world as a coder for companies that are creating the tools that everybody else is going to use to oh, you know, this is the one thing I probably would say, if, if I asked myself the question, I just want to make sure everybody understands all of these programs, everything the stuff that I did in Photoshop, even though it was a little sloppy, all the stuff that you’re using, whether it be on WordPress, or you know, you’re talking about, you know, some of these, these tools, and we didn’t get into that maybe that’s the other thing that we could have done is get into what are some common, no code tools and some common low code tools. But we didn’t get into that today. And that’s all right. But one thing I will say is, every bit of them use code, there is no program, there is no app or website. They all have code in them guys in the differences. And I’ll go back to the analogy or the visual that Daniel used with Legos, each individual Lego, in the no code or low code space is a line of code or a group of code, a block of code that’s been written by somebody else. And you stack the codes to build on the analogy, because with Legos, what I can build that that ship, or that barn, or that airplane, or any other thing that I want to try to build, I can build it. And I can take those logos and arrange them in any given way, and create something unique with it. But at the end of the day, I didn’t have to know any of the code to create it. But if you’re out there, and you’re like, you know, my son right now is going to school, to for software engineering. He’s learning code, he knows some code already, he went into college already doing some code. But this is a field where you know, he and I had this conversation, like don’t stop, the world’s going to need you even more why? Because with all these no code tools, somebody has to create them. And then somebody has to like you were talking about Jesse, somebody has to test them, and make sure that they’re staying up to date and evolve them. So you know, if you’re out there, and you’re a student, and you’re trying, you want to learn something, don’t shy away from software engineering, I’d say jump in even more, because the world to me is going to apps, it’s going to web applications, it’s going to websites, it’s software, this the world is more and more digital. Well, every person who can help create a software or an application that can be used in that in virtual reality and augmented reality. And in all of these things. That’s where the world is going right? Now. Okay, so Jesse, you have something that you wanted to leave us with, I’ve got the link ready to go. So if you want to, if you want to.

Jesse Meijers 

So yeah, we have a white paper for people to to check out obviously, we have the report as well. But since we’ve been talking about improvement of your, of your business process, this is also linked in our report, we have a white paper on how to scale up your business. It’s a process. So it’s again, it’s just a way sort of a framework to think about how can I improve my business? And one of the major things like the pro tip that I want to give people is hears this right you hear a lot about Chet GPT GPT three AI How can I use that in my business process, right? You’re thinking maybe, oh, I’m behind. I don’t know all this stuff. Here’s a really simple, simple little tool that I can give you as a reference to think about TPT is good at making a making a text instead of categorizing. It’s right. So what have we done in this regard? And this is something everyone can use. We take emails, and we asked GPT, hey, this email, does it require? Is it like a positive response? does this require a follow up from us? Or not? And then GPT says yes or no. So we asked him to say yes or no, if it’s yes, in our process in our trigger application, because we use trigger also. But in our application, we if it yes, it goes into a different process. If it’s a no, it goes in another direction. This is a way that every business can already today use AI in their business processes in the simplest way possible, and it will save you a massive amount of time reading emails and parsing things.

Ira Bowman 

I have a question regarding emails, but a little bit different. Let’s say we have a database, I want to know, I want to know, I’m going to ask you both a hypothetical question. And then I’m going to place an order for it after the show is the real world, a real world scenario that I need right now. So one of the things that Bowman digital media did, and the Daniel and I have not talked about this, because this wasn’t a service that I offered up until earlier this week, I’m sorry, last week now. But I announced this last week, I believe, on Wednesday, I announced it, Bowman digital media has a large database, a lot of companies do have contacts, we have the business name, email address, the title, all that stuff. So some of our clients are going to hire Bowman digital media to send out emails on their behalf. But instead of using a company like MailChimp, or something like that, that’s going to send them all out at one time. There’s, there’s advantages to not doing that. There’s advantages to sending them out one at a time. Right? So if I wanted to automate that process, how, how much time would it take, you got to be able to sync in with different email addresses. So it’s not like for us, right, we’re a marketing company. So it wouldn’t be coming from Bowman digital media, like it might be coming from trigger or locode road or any, any of the clients that we would have, right? So they would give us the credentials to an email that we could log in with, then we’d have to program the headline to subject and then put in the body. And we’ll do it one at a time. But we obviously would want to insert the first name. Right. And we don’t want first name here, right? Like, you know, that’s the Cody, the Cody stuff. We don’t want that. But we want the first name there. And then the body of the email, and then I didn’t even think about what you just said, having trigger read the responses and go okay, now we’re in a stack the yes pile, the no mild, the no pile that hey, can you take me off your list pile? Because let’s be honest. Right? So how hard and how much? You know? Can you give us a ballpark? I mean, obviously, I’m not gonna hold you to this quote, but just give people an example. How much time are we talking about? A? Is it possible? How much time would it take? And about? How much do you guys think it would cost?

Jesse Meijers 

To answer this,

Ira Bowman 

we did not. We did know your

Jesse Meijers 

mind how much time it would cost me with trigger to build something. But go ahead.

Nathaniel Holzmann 

Jessie, how much time? Is it going to take an interior?

Jesse Meijers 

Oh, this is very, like, it depends on how big of an application you are thinking about. And there’s other functionality, but the sending the emails this way, would probably cost me to make it good and usable, maybe a day or two maximum, I would say. And I would probably attack in a slightly different way. But but this is this, how do I would even do one better. Because when it comes to spam rules and stuff like that, right? Sending the same email to a lot of people is not the way to go. But you can again, use AI. So you can ask GPT three, please rewrite this email for me. And it will actually give you a rewrite of that email. And you can do this for every single email. So you send out specifically targeted emails, like they say the same message, but they’re slightly different. Yeah. We can read the individual words, but it does mean that you can send them and they are more personalized. So you can say like, look, this is a marketing person that I’m talking to. So make it sound a little bit more amicable or formal. Yeah,

Ira Bowman 

that’s, that’s what’s cool about our database is we have their we have their titles too. So we could Yeah, we could definitely do that. I love it. All right. So you’re saying a couple of days. So for me, like as a business owner, I can pay someone by the hour which is full disclosure. While I was doing it, I could pay somebody by the hour to send out these emails. Right? We’ll do 40 or 50 of them in an hour, one at a time. You know, copy paste, of course, but we don’t get that we don’t get that rewrite. So there’s an advantage right off the bat. Yeah. And if they’re sick, or they’re out, or they quit, you know, now I’ve got to train somebody. Right? Yeah, exactly.

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, there’s, there’s so many ways that you can optimize your personal processes, a personal meaning, your business, your business process. Yeah.

Ira Bowman 

Now, imagine if you’re watching this, you have something similar in your mind, where you want to know, how much time would it take? How much would it cost to create the solution? What I want you to do is reach out to me or reach out to Nathaniel, I reach out to Jesse, and ask them, right and let them know Do me a favor, let them know you saw this show. So they know that it was worth their extra 30 minutes. I’ve held him 30 minutes longer than I was supposed to. But it was worth director 30, extra 30 minutes, because you watched it and you have a business related question you want to ask him. Guys, we are over time. I want to respect your time. So I’m going to give you just a few more minutes each. Any parting thoughts before we get out here, Daniel?

Nathaniel Holzmann 

No, thank you very much. I really, I really enjoyed this. This was a lot of fun. And it’s great to talk to you talk to Jesse and talk about the ways that we can help businesses save money, streamline their operations and get a huge, huge ROI.

Ira Bowman 

Yeah, not not just not just the money. I mean, the money is impressive, but to me, right? That time savings and don’t forget what I was talking about guys, the keeping your rockstar employees happier, because they’re not frustrated that absolutely something is so dumb. Why do we have to do it this way? It’s so inefficient, right? And the answer is, you don’t have to do that anymore. There is a way to do and keep your top talent happy. You don’t have to pay him as much. If they’re satisfied, they’re not going to leave you if they’re satisfied. So business owners, if you’re not thinking about well, I’m making plenty of money and time is not really an issue. Think about the overall satisfaction of your of your staff to Jessie, any final parting thoughts here?

Jesse Meijers 

Yeah, I think the the biggest thing is that what what also is now really important is you might have thought as a like medium sized, or small size company, like Oh, but I have to get into software development, that’s going to be expensive, and everything low good to know could really make this actually accessible for the medium and small sized company, they make custom applications accessible for you. It’s a completely different paradigm in that sense, because you weren’t able to do that before. But now you are. So I think that the best tip that I can give business owners is to start thinking in that way, like, hey, I can actually improve these processes that seemed like they were very rigid until now, to maximize that, that competitive advantage of your company being a unique company, doing your things in your way and maximizing that with with low code and no code.

Ira Bowman 

I would I would say this, I would leave, I would leave the audience with this. You don’t have to know how it’s going to happen. You don’t even have to know if it’s possible. All you have to do is come up with your pain points. What is the bottleneck in your operation? What is the thing? If? If there was a genie out there in a bottle? Who could you know, grant your wish? If your wish is business related, right process related, I would encourage you to reach out to Nathaniel specifically at locode wrote, why? Because the Daniel is going to incorporate when it makes sense to trigger no code solutions. And if it doesn’t, then he’ll go over to like Reekado, or one of the other low code tools that he has in his in his tool belt. He’s got a variety of tools in his tool belt that he can come up with, and his team can implement. But he doesn’t know what you want fixed yet. So that’s where you watching come in. You got to be brave and say, You know what, this is what I really want to happen. Nathaniel, can your team of wizards, you know, do their magic? And the answer almost always is yes. Sometimes it’s no. And I respect that about Nathaniel, right? I know for a fact that there are times where clients have a request, and he goes, You know what we just that’s not something that we really can do with no code and low code tools. You need a full development team. And there is like I said, we’re not trying to tell you that. No custom coding, custom software development is going away. By no stretch of the imagination. Have we said that? We’re saying that a lot of the things can now be done faster, utilizing no code and low code tools. And you don’t necessarily have to pay a development team all this money to create it from scratch. They can use these tools to help speed it up and make it less expensive for you. Gentlemen, before we leave just one last time. I want to show everybody how to get a hold of you guys. So So trigger no code is a platform that you can use to create some software. What kind of software you can read about it at trigger that’s t r i g g r e.com. Low code road is a company. Sorry, I’m still on this blog. Low code road is a company that utilizes both no code, and low code tools we’ve talked about including trigger to help create solutions to fit your goal, master your data, streamline your process, solve the problem, I love it. Here’s something we didn’t talk about that we really should have to this also can increase your business value. How having custom software is something that goes on your books and prospective buyers or people who are evaluating value doing valuations of your company will go oh, you’ve got custom software. Okay, that makes your company worth more money. Something we did not talk about all my bad Mia Copa, I should have talked about that. See, this is why you hire somebody does more prep to me, I thought I was ready. Anyways, guys, thank you so much for joining us. I will have the links to trigger to low code Road in this show. If you are joining us late, you can find the whole episode on my YouTube channel. But also we’re going to have these videos available at trigger at low code and at Bowman digital media. So you can see this anytime. We appreciate you being here. Thank you very much everybody. Have a wonderful Day.